European wagons (Made in USA)

Here is another of Kelley's KraZy Ideas
The US dollar being as week as it is (and will be for a long time) and a good chunk of our European friends getting into American style railroading, not just because of the cool looking American engines and cars, but because its cheep, why doesn't somebody, take that crazy first step, and produce a NICE, and SCALE European car??
I have met quite a bit of Europeans who, look at the American style wagons and say
"Yea, those are really nice, but, I don't do American railroading."
If US cars and engines can be built in the Old Country, then why can't a European wagon be built in the US?
Maybe model the prototype car that was sent over during and after 1945, the Bahn used the flatcars for a long time afterwords. These cars were US made cars built to European standards.
I'd like to get feedback from some of out European friends on this.

There is a surprising number of European Z scale manufacturers, smaller "cottage industries" making a wide range of European rolling stock. Proportionally, I think there are far more of them there than there are small US shops making US rolling stock here. So, I have a feeling that the European Z scale market is better served than we might realize. If I was a US manufacturer knowing what I do about the European market, I would not bother trying to crack into it; I'd work much harder to fill the huge voids in the US market.

Cottage industry is right. They are made by little Heinzelmännchen deep in the Black Forest:silly: ....but few but the hard corps collectors can afford them. One dude who made really good stuff, will sell you a catalog for about 20 US dollars that's a bunch of over xeroxed pages stapled in one corner. His stuff sells as collectors items on epay..good stuff but I could not afford it even if I was downrange.Good luck trying to get anything direct from him.
The other are very good too, but I think this would be a time to break into the German market with "Auntie M" being sick.
I asked this question to some of my German friends, 2 of whom actually have one of these cottage industries, and they think its a good idea. If not us then the Chinese?
M made lots of neat stuff but just as ridiculous as the US Boxcars looked to us, so did some of their German wagons look to the Europeans, WAY off from prototype.
I do agree that there is still a big big gap of what can be made as far as US rolling stock and engines, and I am sure this is where the priority is.
I am thinking that of all the scales that would be considered global or international, Z would be the one where an American model of a German prototype would sell, on both sides of the pond.

I would hope that US manufactures would continue to make just North American rail cars. There is so much that is left to be made, and to delve into European wagons would only dilute a finite amount of time, talent, and treasure to keep the NA market expanding. Euro Z has all kinds of eras and trains, AND manufactures, etc.
Fred

I am wondering who all these European manufacturers are?.. I can think of 6 off the top of my head and 4 of them make US models..others make only European models, but Swiss watch like, in price and quality.
Buildings and accessories, yep Europe has it covered, but still there is a small US company's making European style buildings. More if you count wooden barns and sheds and whatnot. (On the other side, if you are making buildings that were built around the turn of the century, the European buildings, especially the brick and factory buildings will work. chances are the people who designed and built them came right off the boat.)

I found many of them while I was researching American Z Scale ( americanzscale.org/ ). Not sure how many of them are still around, as that was years ago, and I didn't keep all of the European links. Perhaps someone needs to do for European Z what I did for American Z.

Kelly,

It is an interesting idea, but I am not sure the feasibility. The only US company who is actively producing and offering European locomotives is Swiss Z Line. Their Swiss Re 4/4 IIs and Re 6/6s have done very well. SZL is working on a new release which we hope will be released in 2010. I think the issue is that with the very week dollar, I have seen the interest in European prototypes declining. Marklin has gotten more expensive. Also, it has gotten hard to find which has hurt sales. I have seen the decline first hand. Ztrack Center has worked very hard to build relationships with many small manufacturers. We import products from HTM, Luetke, 1zu220 (going out of business), KPF, Bernd Bauer, Mo-Miniatur, Norm24, Rolfs brass, FR, and Z-Modellbau. This is an amazing selection of products. But, I have been surprised by what I think should be more interest in lines such as Luetke and FR. Luetke offers the most amazing line of structures and kits. As a European modeler, I have been loving life buying these kits and adding them to the layout. It is creating new options that we never had before. FR has just released their new K3 boxcars. These are stunning! I thought more of the Z Euro community would be interested in these, but this does not appear to be the case.

I personally would love to see more European prototypes. But for now I am going to keep looking at our European friends to offer them and develop the lines. I would love to see the dollar and Euro adjust since I think this would help the lines I mentioned above get more interest here in the US.

Rob

I really do wish there were more manufacturers making Z in both US and European prototypes. The US prototypes are in desperate need of steamers. European prototypres are now in need of everything, since Marklin cut down the number of models it releases every year. And no, I will not buy everything that comes out of shell I'm interested only in Era III both US and Europe.

cheers

Konrad

I wouldn't mind more choice. But I'm afraid that is will be just another series of manufacturers like those in a previous post. All very nice, but if you have a single model from them you've had it: no "mainline" items. And then it remains to be seen how affordable they would be. Everything I get from outside the EU is slapped with at least 30% taxes, sometimes even 100%.

Don't understand me wrong, I love my Z-modellbau Köf but I don't need 2 of them. Likewise you don't need 5 snowplows or heavy cranes.

I thought more of the Z Euro community would be interested in these, but this does not appear to be the case.

They are Swiss and don't come out of the country. So except for those modelling Swiss they are of little use. Z has a loyal public in Switzerland but Swiss modelling isn't that common in the rest of europe.

I feel it would be worth talking to the large chinese/east european manufacturing houses that now make h0 stuff. They have the knowledge and experience to take over where Marklin leaves. I don't have any business sense myself, but that is where I would go.

We in Z scale are faced with a conundrum. Our ardent interest simply cannot be fed by available products, yet the hopes of seeing significant growth in the product range is unlikely as long as our numbers remain so small. Manufacturing products--particularly rolling stock--is a very costly affair, and more of that cost must be passed on to the buyer for Z than other scales because the volume is so low.

About the only thing we can do as individuals is try our best to draw others into the scale, because the only way a larger product range can be supported is with more modelers working in Z. We all need to become ambassadors of Z scale.

I guess "Europe" Z can be mainly limited to Germany and Switzerland, there are other small Z communities in other countries, but it's really about Germany and Switzerland. Swiss Z is very popular in Germany too, otherwise I can't explain that FR has nearly abandom US-Z (apart from the USD) and is concentrating on swiss locos and rolling stock, or?
Maerklin is still in limbo and what's left is small series manufacturer, coming with a price tag.
In the meantime you see a lot of swiss stuff on german rails, so they can be used, of course not the MOW stuff.

FR has definitely been hurt by the USD. Due to the week dollar, pricing on FR products has almost doubled. The second issue is that many of US products FR has offered are now available as injection molded products. We have seen this with the FR two-bays which are now offered by Full Throttle, the Gunderson which are now available through MTL, Bethgon coal porters by AZL and now the PS2-cd which AZL will be offering soon. Personally, I think owning examples of FR brass rolling stock is a real treat which is why we offer subscriber cars from FR almost every year. These are truly special.

The Swiss market does seem more open. Marklin has offered a vast selection of German prototypes, but not many true Swiss prototypes. FR is helping to fill the gaps. FR's ballast cars are exceptional. The new K3 boxcars are simply outstanding. Runs are small, and sell out quickly. But they are stand out pieces of rolling stock.

I have encouraged FR to offer a German prototype release and he has a very good option that he is looking at. Also, I know FR is working on a new US release and we hope to offer this as a Ztrack Subscriber car in the future.

Rob

Rob, the problem with FR is that their line is getting old. There is so many PS2, Gunderson, woodchip cars, and Coalporters you want. Like you said, some of cars is being made cheaper by somebody else, but I think theres still a market for FR. I think a modern reefer with exterior refrigeration would be perfect. www.krunk.org/~joeshaw/pics/pvt-box/tpix/tpix3056-1-medium.jpg

Gosh, there are loads of cars to choose from, modern and early, if someone wants suggestions on things to make. How about a composite-side two-bay hopper? That's a serious want of mine. There are all types of tank cars still missing. Alvaro took a (beautiful) stab at an early auto transporter--there were dozens of variations on this car type. A depressed-center flat would be most welcome. How about a milk car? Airslide hoppers, anyone? Mill gondolas, outside-braced boxcars, and endless versions of cabeese remain ready to build. I'd die for an American crane, like a Bucyrus Erie 250 ton wrecker, but most any common type would do! Plus, there's no end of passenger car holes to fill.

This barely scratches the surface. The mind boggles! FR (and anyone else) can still have a field day in Z scale. Will there be enough buyers to make it worthwhile, though? That's the $64,000 question.

David K. Smith wrote:

This barely scratches the surface. The mind boggles! FR (and anyone else) can still have a field day in Z scale. Will there be enough buyers to make it worthwhile, though? That's the $64,000 question.

This is the kicker I think for any small (or not so small) manufacturer looking to get into Z, will there be enough buyers? I think it's a reasonable guess at this point to say whatever new product comes out, it will have to be pricier due to the fact that it simply won't sell as many say, if that same product came out in N scale.

Unfortunately it's easy to understand both sides. The Z buyer doesn't want to spend too much and the small Z manufacturer can't afford to sell it for too little.

Look at a company like BLMA. They make some really good Z accessories but in the past year or so they've not introduced any new Z pieces. Their N scale product list however has greatly expanded.

So what do we do... recruit more folks into Z? Communicate directly with small manufacturers? It's a heck of a good question and a question that could really use an answer.

John
www.ztrains.com

Ztrains wrote:

David K. Smith wrote:

This barely scratches the surface. The mind boggles! FR (and anyone else) can still have a field day in Z scale. Will there be enough buyers to make it worthwhile, though? That's the $64,000 question.

So what do we do... recruit more folks into Z? Communicate directly with small manufacturers? It's a heck of a good question and a question that could really use an answer.

I say the answer is yes. One of the key to increasing variety in scale is by growing the scale. That is exactly why we have all of the new releases today. This could never occur ten years ago. I also think communicating with manufacturers is good, but it is better to support these manufacturers. Manufacturers can and will grow the scale if sales dictate it. Also provide feedback, both positive and negative. But we also need to be objective. This can be hard when we are passionate about our favorite roads and prototypes. But for small manufacturers to be successful, they need to release products that have a wide appeal unless they are able to produce small specialized runs. Just something to think about.

Rob

I am glad I got people stirred up to come up with thoughtful ideas!
Now from my observations.. of whats out there and the market.Looking from Europe to the US..
I go to the mainstream hobby and toy stores and the workers say that Z isn't selling. When they say Z they mean Maerklin. And the axillary companies selling accessories to them.
A lot of this is that M has cut back on what they produce.
There are quite a few in the Z world in Europe going to the NA trains. Big LOOONG trains produced in USA, running on modules. (Not to say the European modelers don't have modules, they have it down really good)
So you have Europeans buying NA type of equipment now. the inroads are there. The guys see each others trains and modules at the same shows.. Ones running the noisy little I think I can engine, and looking across the way at the quiet smooth running GP pulling 3 times the load.
If a US company (or Chinese) could produce a reliable, quiet, low maintenance, and accurate German engine, or some low cost freight cars, I think they would sell.

Kelley wrote:

...So you have Europeans buying NA type of equipment now. the inroads are there. The guys see each others trains and modules at the same shows.. Ones running the noisy little I think I can engine, and looking across the way at the quiet smooth running GP pulling 3 times the load.
If a US company (or Chinese) could produce a reliable, quiet, low maintenance, and accurate German engine, or some low cost freight cars, I think they would sell.

Perhaps one approach might be to make some European loco shells that fit Micro-Trains mechanisms. It may be unprototypical, but that never stopped Märklin from plopping American shells on European mechanisms, and finding buyers for their little Frankensteins.

There are quite a few in the Z world in Europe going to the NA trains. Big LOOONG trains produced in USA,

Well doing something different from what you see everyday in your hobby makes sense to me. And with the net it is easier to get a load of US stuff here than to order 5 Marklin cars at a dealer. I have 5 cars in order since february!

As Z is apparently much more alive in the US than in europe it makes double sense. At least you know that in a couple of year you'll be able to buy some. As I see it, european Z is dead. There isn't a big manufacturer anymore (Marklin is only theoretically alive) and what is the chance anyone else will come in its place?

I guess "Europe" Z can be mainly limited to Germany and Switzerland, there are other small Z communities in other countries, but it's really about Germany and Switzerland.

Again true, but a lot of this is because Marklin never did anything else than german and swiss models. So Z hardly took foothold outside Germany and Switzerland.

If a US company (or Chinese) could produce a reliable, quiet, low maintenance, and accurate German engine, or some low cost freight cars, I think they would sell.

Very likely. Certainly mainstream goods cars are missing right now.

Fred wrote:

Euro Z has all kinds of eras and trains, AND manufactures, etc.
Fred

Unfortunately not. The historic manufacturer seems to continue beeing unaware that european railroading goes beyond german-swiss-austrian, as there is still virtually nothing dealing with french, italian, danish, spanish, swedish, norvegian, british or portuguese beeing released from its factories. And crafstmen are not really outside of that historic manufacturer's market range.

Even if myself I don't really care as I'm a NA prototype modeller... So from a very selfish standpoint I'm more in hope of a GE U23B for example, than of any euro prototype stuff.

Dom