Since I cant argue the point there...

Ill argue it here.
www.burlingtonroute.com/image/steam_lettering.jpg
Don´t matter what program or what kind of math or other weird science or computer stuff you use. If you are doing research, you should always go back to the original source. This took me all of 15 seconds to find.

Kelley,
So what is the point you're arguing?
Mark

There was a back and fourth discussion, someplace else on the interwebz about the placement of heralds on locomotive tenders. There was one camp, saying they were off center, and another camp saying they were centered. Like everything else people took sides and used all kinds of science and computer skill to argue the point one way or another.

Myself, I am on the 3rd camp, that deals in facts, and research. A pain in the caboose to everyone else. I can´t speak for other railroads, but as far as the CB&Q is concerned, the heralds are centered, as the example in the link I posted.

Kelley,
Ok, now I understand. I guess you could put me in the 4th camp: everyone's right, sort of, I can't speak to the CB&Q from my research, but I have done quite a bit for the WP. I was going to question the size and positioning of WP's logo on the AZL tenders, but going back to my research I found they used 2 different size logos, positioned centered and forward of center and the AZL model was prototypical of the 1930s.

So my thought, baring further research, would be for some time in the life of CB&Q Mikados all the references are correct. While your document is pretty conclusive that the heralds were centered for a while starting in 1927, I wonder what the previous documents it replaced, 2773 and 6911, said?

While the internet can be a great place to do research to justify a position, I found in modeling prototypes, most of the time the information is incomplete. I'm fortunate to live not too far from the CSRM archives. They have a wealth of WP info in print that simply doesn't appear on line and contrasts the info posted.

Of course it could just be that people want to model the Lionel trains they had as a kid.

Mark

markm wrote: While the internet can be a great place to do research to justify a position, I found in modeling prototypes, most of the time the information is incomplete.

Sort of like science... it's absolutely proven... until another scientist disproves it.

PLUTO! It's a planet. No... it's not.

Of course... I still believe the earth is flat. Don't believe me? Look at all our layouts.

Mr.JA wrote:
PLUTO! It's a planet. No... it's not.

Of course... I still believe the earth is flat. Don't believe me? Look at all our layouts.

Gee, I thought Pluto was Mickey's dog.

You should have seen my last layout, the way it warped, the Earth has to be round!

Mark

Kelly,
Been looking around the Burlington site, cool site BTW. They also show a drawing with the tender logo position somewhat forward of center:

www.burlingtonroute.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=6&pid=568#top_display_media


Mark

One is a reprint, from a railroad magazine, the other is a work order for the paint department of the railroad.

Actually Kelly's drawings have proved the point that AZL's logo placement is correct. Why you ask? Take a look at the prototype photo that shows the logo is pushed back.



Note that in both the drawing and in the proto photo, the back edge of the logo aligns with the back end of the top bunker extension. The drawing Kelly posted shows a much longer tender then those pictured on the true prototypes. If the paint crews followed the rule on alignment as it pertains to the top bunker, then on the shorter tenders, the logos would be pushed back.

Also not how 'Lignite' should appear on the back of the top bunker. See how the logo is almost tied to the location of this verbiage?

Checking the AZL model, the AZL tender has a curved extension on the bunker, but if you removed this, the logo placement perfectly matches the rivet pattern of the back of the bunker.

So now we understand why the placement is where it is, and why they are off center on some tenders. Makes perfect sense.

By the way, I look at the chute under the tender being the true center point. The rear trucks are pushed back, but the chute is the true center. Logos must align over the chute to be center.

Rob

Nope you are off by about 5 feet. Lignite markings are only for lignite burning trains. Center of herald is supposed to be center of tender. The Mike does not have a slopped tender. Also the picture you are using is at an angle. Guys at the CB&Q site even say you are off, and they dont have a dog in this hunt. Nice engine but, you are off.

Kelly photos don't lie. The math was done and it is shown on the photos. See what you want to see. But because it is sloped doesn't matter when the correct calculations were performed. And they were. You are seeing the results of a lot of time spent coming up with the angle and ration and use that basis to determine the center point. This wan't me or AZL who did the math, but guys on Railwire who would have loved to prove AZL wrong. But they had to admit that AZL was right. I will take a photo over a drawing any day. Remember, there are exceptions to every rule. And railroading is filled with exceptions. Don't get caught up on what it should be. Just open your eyes to what it is.

Rob

Rob, the loco you are showing as your "evidence" is not an USRA Heavy Mikado Class O-4 of CB&Q. Mike Skibbe made you already aware of this.
Those are USRA Heavy Mikes class O-4 and where is the herald placed?



Correct, pictures don't lie...
If you believe it or not: AZL does mistakes

Gerd I never said all CB&Q logos were off center. I also never said AZL doesn't make mistakes. But what I did say is that not all CB&Q logos were centered on their Mikados. I think we showed this is a true statement. The two photos you posted further bolster that fact the photo I posted has an off center logo which was a big point of this discussion. AZL chose to model one with an off center logo and there are photos to show that prototypes existed that reinforce the placement. Again there are exceptions to ever rule.

Rob

I'm not talking about any CB&Q Mikado, I'm talking about USRA Heavy Mikados which AZL is offering and which is clearly WRONG decorated and this is what those pictures are showing: CENTRED LOGOS.

Gerd, uppercase? Really. This is hobby? Go play with some trains and have some fun. That's what I plan on doing. Have a good night...

Rob

ztrack wrote: Gerd, uppercase? Really. This is hobby? Go play with some trains and have some fun. That's what I plan on doing. Have a good night...

Rob

Really? Picking up your toys and going home, eh?

When customers are expecting something as simple as a correct logo placement on a tender you should show more respect and admit that its possible that the actual Mike you're selling probably never had an off center herald because, well, maybe somewhere in the world it did. Is it too hard to say "We're sorry guys, its too late to change it now, hope you can see past this and enjoy your loco anyway"?

We all make mistakes, trying to pass one off as if it wasn't one is the harder pill for some to swallow here. I imagine Gerd used all caps because maybe he didn't think you were really listening, RIGHT GERD?

Karen your so funny. Me take my trains and go home? Well technically most of trains are at my house, but I digress. Never you should know by now I don't back down. Actually it was a literal statement. See last night I took some time for myself and worked on my layout.



I shared this on Trainboard last night. It is fun to get back to working on the layout. I am adding ground foam to the hillside. I love where this scene is going.

My real point to Kelly was not too get upset by this. See there are two types of people in this hobby. Those who love to dive into chat rooms, take glee at companies and individuals apparent missteps, and make it their personal goal to drive people out of the hobby (by the way, I am still here Karen). What fun is that??

Or there are those who just want to enjoy the hobby and have fun with it.

Gerd and Kelly have great points. No argument there. But so does AZL. Each side has shown their position. And each side is absolutely right. Examples exist that show either placement may be correct. AZL is not the only company to position the logo on the tender off center. Others have as well. Again, I am not saying they were correct, but photos show that it is accurate on at least some class of models, or during different time frames.

Then again, we can go into great lengths talking about what details are wrong on this model, or this class, or this road names, etc, etc, etc. Let's not even get into that conversation.

The bigger picture here is that AZL knocked the Mikados out of the park when it comes with Mikados. For a mass produced Z locomotive, hey are a huge advancement in Z. Anyone want to go back to Marklin Mikados? To me this discussion is closed. Both sides have shown their points and each and every one of us can make our own decision if it is acceptable or not.

So what is our next step? Go have fun, run trains and enjoy the hobby or dive into a chat room to continue the fight? I have made my decision, running trains, getting hands dirty landscaping and sharing the passion with others is so much more exciting and enjoyable.

So have you played with your trains today?

Rob

Its quite simple really. I wrote to say that I felt you should show more respect to your customers who don't agree with you. Perhaps you could have sympathized with them for the possible "misstep". But no, you had to turn it into an opportunity to personally attack me for whatever reason (more than once). Tell us how you really feel.

Only you Rob.....

Karen, I am not attacking anyone. Just trying to be a bit lighthearted and break the tension. Look I will be home later. Let's catch-up. Give me a call.

Rob