Longing for Affordable Steam Power

While the detail, material cost and quality of an engine like the new AZL Challenger may justify the high prices it demands, I'm seriously interested in some decent steam power in the less than $200 range.

Does anyone have a clue as to when we might expect to see something more affordable for us regular folk who would like to run an alternative to diesel power? I really believe that this gap in Z-Scale is what keeps many modelers from leaving HO or N for Z.

You do know about the Tenshodo D51 series, right? About $100.00, including shipping.

Word of warning... Do NOT buy these off feeBay. You can find them much cheaper than getting ripped-off.

Good point about buying these locos off Ebay. Deal direct for about $101. As for affordable steam power, Brad, you are correct. The lack of it in Z scale is a stickler for other scale modelers from dropping down. That, coupled with little or no rolling stock before 1940 is another problem. I like this Tenshodo offering. I would not purchase even one because I think it is ugly, too small, and I don't have the skills or the mindset to make a K-28 Mikado out of one. The K28 is a narrow guage and I'm not into that can of worms. That said, if you want full sized North American prototype steamers then you have two choices at this point. One you can buy Marklin's offerings and their way over priced prices. Or we Z scalers can make out wants known to Tenshodo.
Enough of their 51's have been sold here so they must have some idea of need here. They have to realize the market for NA locos. Osmosis is not the most reliable way. We have to tell them our needs. Finally, even if they figure out a market here tomorrow you will not see any NA loco for about 3 years minimum. Just life in the slow lane. Cheers, Jim CCRR:)

OK, to be more specific, I'm lamenting for American Steam

Brad, So was I. Read my post again. Cheers, Jim CCRR:)

Socalz44 wrote:

Enough of their 51's have been sold here so they must have some idea of need here. They have to realize the market for NA locos. Osmosis is not the most reliable way. We have to tell them our needs. Finally, even if they figure out a market here tomorrow you will not see any NA loco for about 3 years minimum. Just life in the slow lane. Cheers, Jim CCRR:)

It would not surprise me if someone offers a retrofit kit to convert a D51 into an American steamer within the next year or so. There were certainly plenty of American locomotives of that size to use as the prototype for a new shell. Also, the way the D51 mechanism is designed makes it quite easy to swap out shells: one screw under the pilot holds the whole thing together.

It's not too hard to guess why there aren't more American steamers in Z... most locomotives were unique to the railroads that ran them and would appeal only to folks interested in modeling those particular roads, excepting only a handful of standardized or wildly popular designs. Diesels, at least any that have been produced so far, were and are largely the same across nearly every railroad in the country- one model with one set of tools and molds appealing to a far wider consumer base. There's a higher profit margin on the diesels, so there are more of them and they're cheaper per unit. For the most part, only the paint job is different between road names.

... I'm seriously interested in some decent steam power in the less than $200 range...

What about $125.00? The great thing about the D51 is the tender drive. Lots of room for weight, DCC and even bulky shell because of it. No motor, no heat, you can scratch build your own shell in a couple of weekends from styrene, some etched brass detail parts, bronze wires and junk from your drawers. If it's not perfect, weather it beyond recognition. (As many pros are doing anyway...) Just kidding.

Lajos:)

silentargus wrote:

It's not too hard to guess why there aren't more American steamers in Z... most locomotives were unique to the railroads that ran them and would appeal only to folks interested in modeling those particular roads, excepting only a handful of standardized or wildly popular designs. Diesels, at least any that have been produced so far, were and are largely the same across nearly every railroad in the country- one model with one set of tools and molds appealing to a far wider consumer base. There's a higher profit margin on the diesels, so there are more of them and they're cheaper per unit. For the most part, only the paint job is different between road names.

Someone with a good knowledge of the USRA would be better to respond but... weren't the USRA locos relatively standardized and used over much of the country and kept in service until the advent of diesels? This would seem to make a good argument for basic (or generic) steamers in Z.

www.steamlocomotive.com/misc/usra.shtml

Beyond matters of prototype... steam engines are always a draw. How many US Z layouts now feature of did feature the Marklin 0-6-0, even though it was clearly not a US loco?

Any generic US steam, I believe, is very welcome in Z. As Lajos wrote, scratch building a shell is the easy part, relatively speaking, I'm just glad to see these D51s now available. It's much more than Z had until just recently.

John
www.ztrains.com

whooaa,, stop there!!! theres lots of great steamers out there for a great price,, but somtimes you have to just add a few things to make it american. take the 8899,,, i have 7 units, not one looks the same. floquil grimy black on the red wheelsets, and anything else red,, and you now have one of americas most busy 4-6-0 ever used in the us and canada. next, take an 8885, pop off the wind units on the front, silver the front 1/3 inch, and there s an independance staring at you,, very busy in the eastern and southern areas of america. i ve designed many models from the german stle locos,, without having to pay the big dollars american marklin wants. and if you ever decide on selling,, just qtip methal hydrate to all that grimy black,, and its back to german, ready to sell. get yourself a book on the american steamers of the 18th n 19th century,, theres a great book out there, but i paid a hundred for it,, theres cheaper books. go to ebay, get a few engines you can change, win them cheap, and experiment!! as most know, i own every steamer marklin ever made in z,, theres alot of cheap units you can get, and can be americanized in just a few minutes of your time. canada mike p.s. i have an 8899 on ebay as we speak.

liltoot wrote:

whooaa,, stop there!!! theres lots of great steamers out there for a great price,, but somtimes you have to just add a few things to make it american. take the 8899,,, i have 7 units, not one looks the same. floquil grimy black on the red wheelsets, and anything else red,, and you now have one of americas most busy 4-6-0 ever used in the us and canada. next, take an 8885, pop off the wind units on the front, silver the front 1/3 inch, and there s an independance staring at you,, very busy in the eastern and southern areas of america. i ve designed many models from the german stle locos,, without having to pay the big dollars american marklin wants. and if you ever decide on selling,, just qtip methal hydrate to all that grimy black,, and its back to german, ready to sell. get yourself a book on the american steamers of the 18th n 19th century,, theres a great book out there, but i paid a hundred for it,, theres cheaper books. go to ebay, get a few engines you can change, win them cheap, and experiment!! as most know, i own every steamer marklin ever made in z,, theres alot of cheap units you can get, and can be americanized in just a few minutes of your time. canada mike p.s. i have an 8899 on ebay as we speak.

Sorry, but just painting the red parts of a German steam locomotive does not make it American. Unless it's just me being too fussy, it'll take a lot more than a few minutes to Americanize a German steamer. Sorry!

silentargus wrote:

It's not too hard to guess why there aren't more American steamers in Z... most locomotives were unique to the railroads that ran them and would appeal only to folks interested in modeling those particular roads, excepting only a handful of standardized or wildly popular designs. Diesels, at least any that have been produced so far, were and are largely the same across nearly every railroad in the country- one model with one set of tools and molds appealing to a far wider consumer base. There's a higher profit margin on the diesels, so there are more of them and they're cheaper per unit. For the most part, only the paint job is different between road names.

This is a little misleading. There were plenty of locomotive designs that could be found all across the country--in particular, any of the (previously-mentioned) USRAs would be prolific. And the road-specific variations of some of the non-standard designs were subtle enough to be overlooked. As for diesels, it works both ways: while generally more homogeneous than steam, there were still a number of road-specific variations to be found.

Well, technically, we already do have a model of one of the USRA locomotives- the light mikado. Compare this image of a B&O prototype with Marklin's 2-8-2 offering- the resemblance is unmistakable, even though they overlooked many details in the conversion so they could pop it on an existing chassis. Then of course they went and threw the shell on a Pacific chassis too. I haven't done any measuring, and I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that the dimensions are all wrong anyway, but... well, the first American steam to come out on the market in Z was a USRA design.

Also, it would be nice to see some of the road-specific diesels- but the reason we don't see them, I think, is the same as why we don't see more steamers. Every major diesel offering thus far has been something that was ubiquitous in its time. As for electrics... the only even remotely affordable US-prototype offering we've got is the GG1, which I'd say safely fits the bill as something 'particularly iconic' even though it only saw use in the Northeast.

I suppose what I was trying to get at is that the more ubiquitous or iconic a locomotive was, the more likely it'll come to market before something less so.

Talking about steam, what happened with the SeaRails shell and tender project. Has it stalled?

The D51 I think could easily be dressed up to look like a North American Logging RR 2-8-2 as they tended to have small drivers. Removing the Smoke deflectors also helps change the engine profile and the tender could be modified with new sides and bunker details even convert it to oil. The standard D51 has a feed water heater on the smoke fox top in front of the stack which was typical of some No. Am. roads.

I was always taught that you got to use what is available and eventually you might get what you want. If you boycott the D51 for what ever reason you are vetoing a new source of Z and the opposite is true of buying and providing a cash incentive to produce more.

The second most popular two Engines in Japan are the Hudson C62 and the Pacific C57 wh knows what you could do with these chassis.

The Nn3 community has already discovered that this chassis works fine for a K27 conversion using a GHQ kit originally designed for the 8892 from Marklin which required a lot of work to modify and the D51 requires much less modification in fact virtually none th the chassis and no motor replacement. Of course in Nn3 with a pewter boiler and cab a lot of weight is added so more pulling power is the result. Plus the added attraction of much better valve gear on the D51 model. In Nn3 most are used to having to modify or adapt something to make it work for Nn3.

cheerz Garth

Responding to the comment about Iconic engines, I completely agree. Iconic locomotives such as the challenger and the SP cab-forward, are much more interesting models than standard mid-sized steamers. However, as interesting as these models are, there is still the void of 2-8-2s, 2-8-4s and other common work-horse locomotives that needs to be filled. The only locos in this size range are the ones from Marklin, that I find they are highly unsatisfactory prototypically. They lack the detail that I feel Z scale needs to have (This only goes for Marklin's American engines, as I feel their German ones are amazing ). AZL's brass engines are beautiful and detailed. In a perfect world, I would like to see AZL moving away from the larger engines like the challenger, and start modeling more mid-sized non-supergiant engines. Of course, these brass engines would be more expensive than the D-51s, much more, but their detail and quality would more than make up for the price.

On the subject of the D-51, I am very excited about the potential for a quality z scale model in the hundred dollar range . I would hope either for an American conversion shell kit as was previously mentioned, or to try to convince the producer of this model to start to make more American locos, even if it could take several years for an actual model to emerge.

Copied from my comments on Train Board from this morning......

"Lajos makes a very good point about investment dollars versus the number of purchasing folks out there in Z.... Some of you may recall the company i started with Doc G a few years ago...North American Scale Models... We had plans of creating a Mikado in Z and took it all the way to the point were we got tooling and development cost from Sanda Kan in Hong Kong.... We were forced to drop the project due to the very high cost of developing a new steam loco in Z.... Our tooling and development cost was set by Sanda Kan at $150K, and this did not include production cost for salable models to the public. When we ran a cost spread sheet to determine the retail cost of the new loco, and set a sales volume figure, we found that the amerized cost of tooling and development on top of production cost put the locos at over $350 bucks each, with the need to sell at least 2500 units to make back our investment dollars before realizing any profit...

The reality of the matter is that there are not enough z scalers in the world to purchase enough of these locos to re-coup our development cost and realize a profit... so not worth the investment for a small upstart company like ours was.... I think it will take a bigger player like Kato to bring affordable steam to the market, but given the limited amount of purchasers i doubt even they will jump into this market until it expands further to justify the amerized cost requiered to develop these new items.

Just my 2 cents....."

Tony B....
Wasatch Z Club

You should here so some discussions or announcements at the Z Convention.

.

silentargus wrote:

It's not too hard to guess why there aren't more American steamers in Z... most locomotives were unique to the railroads that ran them and would appeal only to folks interested in modeling those particular roads, excepting only a handful of standardized or wildly popular designs. Diesels, at least any that have been produced so far, were and are largely the same across nearly every railroad in the country- one model with one set of tools and molds appealing to a far wider consumer base. There's a higher profit margin on the diesels, so there are more of them and they're cheaper per unit. For the most part, only the paint job is different between road names.

You're right, but with the noticeable exception of USRA Mikes, light and heavies. In my opinion that would be the first gap to hurry into for a newcomer wanting to expand Z scale steam roster.

Furthermore, an HO manufacturer, I don't remember which one among Athearn, Atlas, etc, released a while ago a generic HO scale 2-10-2 which isn't actually a prototype loco. But the general layout is compliant with what one can expect of a NA style steamer, which Marklin Z scale generic Mikes and Pacifics obviously aren't.

Dom

Guys,

Its up to you to convince Micro-Trains to remake this beauties,
and a few other....

Mikados are a good choice to model. They are wide spread and common on American roads. The Marklin C & O model, although highly un-prototypical, is not horrible and can be improved. I could not find a picture of the C & O road number in question, but I did find a very similar Nickel Plate prototype.

www.rr-fallenflags.org/nkp/nkp-s587jd.jpg

The main problem with the Marklin model is its lack of detail. The pipes and handrail are poorly pronounced if even present. With the addition of thin wire for the pipes (lots of pipes), number boards and detailing of the back wheel set, a suitable model could be created. There are some almost unfixable errors on the shell, however. The slant in the boiler is to early and drastic, and the "step" on the prototype is not present on the model, but this may just be specific to the particular engine. If one would be willing to spend a fair amount on the Marklin model, and proceed to kit-bash it, a decent useable model could be created, provided the flaws could be ignored. I considered this option for a brief period, but opted not to delve into it due to the high price of the models.

Shells will be available soon for Marklin Mikados. You will be very surprised when the announcemnt comes. Cheers, Jim CCRR:)