New to Z

Hi all, I had HO as a kid, love the trains, still have some Loco's. but fell out of it. I am a former armor modeler in 1/35th scale and now a ship builder in 1/700, built a few Dioramas also. I am interested in possibly doing a Z scale layout, industrial setting,mills, turntable, roundhouse maybe, a yard or two or a mining layout,my focus would be on making the most realistic scene but also having a working RR. Can this be done Z in a 2'x3' area? Also I would assume that HO and N scale layouts can just be scaled down for Z ?

Thanks Tony

Hello Tony, Welcome. This is Jim from Trainboard. Glad you made it here. ZCS is perhaps a bit more 'user friendly' for new modelers. It is all the same members but I think you can get your feet wet in Z scale quicker here. Check out our Gallery and see thousands of photos all showing the possiblities of Z scale. If you have a question ask it. If you like to do research on you own try the Forums. Also, go to the archieves. I know you have chosen a scale, no matter. Enjoy ZCS and other Z sites as you will and make your choice. Cheers, Jim CCRR:)

Hey Tony,

Check out jamesriverbranch.net/ It is a wonderful layout being constructed in Z and show the incredible scenery possibilities. David (the layout creator) frequently makes comments on the board and augments them with photos of his work which are always impressive. As Jim mentioned, look around and you will find a wealth of information and examples.

Mike

For both pocketbook and realism it is best not to try to cram a lot into 2x3. I started out with four layouts of this size and took them all apart. I tried to do too much in too little space. It might be good to look at Micro Trains and Marklin track plans to see what has worked before in terms of looking right.

Hi Tony;

I would not go less than 2 x 4. My reasoning is it gives you enough depth and length to do some switching and yet provide for a hidden run around. So you could model a mountain valley with tunnel access at either end for your loop of track and then leaves you room for a small turntable and a couple of industries to switch. For track I would suggest a choice of hand laid using Fast Tracks jigs and fixtures or Micro Trains Flex with Wright turnouts if you are going to be doing switching. If you hand lay then code 40 is possible while the Micro trains Flex and Wright switches are code 55.

cheerz Garth

Hi Tony, as others have mentioned, with your space constraints, you may more or less be limited to Z scale. However, it depends on a number of factors. When you mention having the "most realistic scene," a 2x3 (or even 2x4) foot space creates some problems. One question to answer is: do you want continuous running? Depending on the type of scene you settle on, this can compromise realism. If you're just going to stick with switching, then it might be doable. But you're really pushing it if you're looking to incorporate a yard with a turntable and an industrial complex or two all in one scene. The real world is a huge place; an average engine servicing facility alone could more than fill a 2x3 foot space in Z scale!

Another factor to consider is the ratio of build versus buy. If you're willing to do a fair bit of scratchbuilding, you can do most anything you want in Z, because there's a limit to what you can purchase—the assortment of structures and rolling stock is fairly limited. Also, at present, there are no American switchers (except for one very expensive brass model, although a more affordable switcher may be on the way). If you went with N scale, you'd be able to purchase kits for just about everything you might need, and you'd have your choice of switchers plus a vast array of freight cars; however, you'd also have proportionally less real estate in which to work; indeed, it would be a diorama more than a layout.

Finally, track may be an issue. Industrial switching areas often require a range of different types of turnouts, plus possibly crossings. In Z, there are just so many switches available; from Micro-Track, presently there's only one size, in left or right, and no crossings. Märklin offers a bit more flexibility in this area, but their track is more appropriate for European-style layouts. This will limit your options reducing N or HO track plans, as those scales offer vastly more options for track; because of this, in many cases, the plans simply can't be reduced to Z.

So, there are lots of things to consider! You may want to invest in just a few pieces of track and a couple of pieces of rolling stock to get an idea of what limitations the scale may impose on your plans. They may help you define the parameters of a "working railroad" within the available space. It is possible to build an entire functioning, self-contained railroad in a very tiny space, but it often comes at a price—such as handlaying track. Here's an extreme example: www.bronx-terminal.com/



My own layout (above) is only 15 x 36 inches, but it does not constitute what I would call a "working railroad"; instead, I consider it a small vignette. jamesriverbranch.net/ I have another layout in the works (below), but it only represents the yard of a narrow-gauge (three-foot) tourist line, which is a far cry from a real working railroad: pinecreekrailroad.net/ Note that it's 18 x 47 inches, and includes only the railroad's yard area—a very small yard at that. This might help give you an idea of what's feasible and what's not, even in Z scale.



It might be a useful exercise to poke around the Internet and look for examples of existing layouts or modeled scenes that hit closest to your own personal mark; studying these might help you to define your goals. Unfortunately there aren't many Z scale websites (at least American-based), but I've collected whatever I could find here: americanzscale.org/

Stop back again and let us know how things are going.

Hi Tony and welcome to this forum. There's some good advice there, especially from David. As a very rough rule-of-thumb, Z is about 40% the size of HO and about 72% of the size of N. You could just scale down on that basis, but that wouldn't be a reliable way of doing it, other than as a way of giving you a rough indication of what might be possible.

Tony,

I came upon a website www.modellplan.de. They show some interesting plans but their main function is to sell plans on CDs. I ordered their Z scale discs several years ago and they remind me of the Marklin magazine with their layout, tracks needed and a picture of what the layout should look like. They gave some interesting ideas. They are located in Goppengen.

Robert

Thanks everyone, Yes I have found David's Blog and site, (thanks David) and have been reading as much as possible about Z scale. I do have a concern with size, I don't mind working in miniature on the bench,with scenery and buildings I like it, however when actually working with the trains I'd like to be able to see what I am doing. I don't really want to be tearing engines and cars apart to modify them at all, some work, weathering, wheels and such maybe but thats as far asI want to go with that.
I understand David, I really have to look at some Z layouts in person to get a feel of size. I think that I can go even to 28x48 Max. I am limited by the size of my bench which is 32x 51wide with walls on both sides, if I can't work on the bench then it's all fruitless. I also need the layout to be portable.
My focus is still on the scene itself more than on the actual running of the trains, but still want an operating RR. Of course the scene I decide on will dictate how easy the buildings and accy's will be to either buy or scratch. Most importantly
I don't want to be overwhelmed at first, I have infinate patients being a modeler but,,, I am new to this and want to complete what I start. Maybe a simpler layout, small and compact might be the way to go, concentrating on scenery with a simple track plan ??

So Z or N as far as ease of operation, layout size, trains, accy;s, track available this is my biggest question. ?? and alot more to come

Thanks much for all your answers guys, Tony

Hi Tony,

I understand your trepidation about jumping into Z or even N. You need not get too complicated with your track plan to have a nice layout with great scenery and a working and uncomplicated train.

I would like to suggest that you:

- get track plan software and play around with track in both Z and N. The software I used for our layout is AnyRail . You can download the trial version for free and it will allow you to make a pretty good and simple plan with no monetary investment.

- buy one or two simple building kits and build them. I'd go with Z kits to begin with because you will be testing your skills at the smaller scale and will have a better idea if this is the scale you will be comfortable in. IMO, the smaller the scale, the greater variation of scenery you will be able to have on your relatively small layout. However, making smaller scale scenery is also more challenging - but this is part of the fun of working in Z

- go to local hobby shops and look at the scales available there. Some of the better stores will have N and HO tracks and/or small layouts to look at. Again, if you're lucky, Z will also be available, though no hobby store in our area has anything in Z.

- go to local train shows and look at the various scales. In our part of the world, Z is never available to look at, but N is. You might get lucky and find Z in your area. If not, you will at least be able to see N in action.


In summary, I'm a beginner model railroader, though I have lots of time to spend researching and practicing modeling in Z. Really, Z is quite a challenge for me, but it's also very rewarding to make small advances with our large European layout. You can follow the progress of our layout on this thread .

I hope my comments have been helpful

Hi all, (sorry for the similar posts in a few forums...

I have been reading all I can on Z, (desktop is off line laptop is for younger eyes) !! So my reading is limited.!!

Beverly outstanding work on your layout, great thread (is there a blog in the future! ?)
I know the torture of celluclay it;s good stuff for rough work but we in the static modeling arena use it sparingly. I know though that in model RR'ing large quantities are needed and spackle, celluclay are the popular materials. Sculpey is good stuff for small areas where smooth texture is needed if you ever have a need for that.
Thanks for the link to the track design site, I'll be there today to check it out !

I have read all about the limited availability of Z hardware etc,( how true is this?) but I think I have to go with Z due to size limits and the fact that I like Small !! I have also heard that Z caters to the EU market and prototypes, is this the case?
I have not really looked into vendors yet for all things Z, if anyone has recommendations on dealers/vendors please I need all the help I can get. I need it all, track, rolling stock, terrain materials, Loco's buildings etc. Brand recommendations also ! ?

I think I have settled on a mining layout ( Steam train ) with a small town if possible as I want some vertical and water elements and have an interest in mining in general. My goal is to have an accurate train related Diorama but with a working train. I am thinking about making a prototype, a static Dio, 12x12" for practice, some track and terrain, nothing set in stone but to get familiar with the methods that model RR;ers use.

I can go to 28 x 48 max, is what I have in mind possible ? I also have an old HO layout book with some great layouts, how exactly do I scale these plans down from HO to Z. Is there a formula ?

So what other advice can you guys and gals give me?? I see this is the place to be for all things Z

Sorry if I am repeating myself I know modeling, and some terrain work but I know next to nothing about Z scale or serious accurate model RR'ing.

Many thanks to all of you, Tony

Welcome back, Tony. Yes, if you compare the availability of products against other scales like N and HO, Z has relatively very little variety to offer. But that's relative; there's still quite a variety. I would not say the market caters to European prototypes, even though it may seem as if there's more for them than US railroads. I think it's fairly well distributed.

However... you mentioned steam, and there we're in very short supply. Märklin offers a few largish mainline steamers, AZL has some very large pricey brass units, there's one nice new affordable—but Japanese—Mikado, and that's about it.

Here's a list of manufacturers making Z scale merchandise: americanzscale.org/list.asp?t=1

Brand recommendations: Pretty much all of them. There's very little overlap, and no one makes "junk"; about the only choice to make is which brand of track to use, and that's dependent on your needs and wants.

As for suppliers, here's a bunch: americanzscale.org/list.asp?t=2

Myself, I do most of my business with Zscale Monster, but I also buy from plenty other vendors as well, including a few overseas and some eBay sellers.

Converting HO plans to Z is a matter of multiplying the dimensions by 40%. But, as stated before, problems arise with the availability of switches and other track components. Märklin has a fair range of components, but they're styled for European railroads. Micro-Trains has a very popular and relatively bullet-proof sectional track system called Micro-Track, but presently there's only one size of switch and three curve radii. Flex track can solve many problems, but then you have to mate it with someone's switches.

Sure, you can do quite a bit in 2x4 feet (all four of the layouts I've built/am building in Z have been around this size), but you may not be able to do what your mind's eye envisions. That's why it's important to look at what others have done, see some of the models in person, and maybe buy some product to play with. Track planning software can help you determine what can and can't be accomplished in 2x4 feet, track-wise, but it takes hands-on experience to be able to visualize scenes that can fit this space.

Building a smaller diorama as a trial is an excellent idea. This will give you first-hand experience with the scale and what you can hope to accomplish with it.

Tony,

You are welcome to visit my website, which is listed in my signature. You will find blogs of my micro-layout and European layout, plus an extensive list of links that might help you do some research.

Tony, I neglected to include a link for non-Z scale specific items, such as scenery materials, building supplies, etc.:

jamesriverbranch.net/links.htm

I am also starting to build a resource for ideas and techniques, which are also included in this link, as a sub-category. Examples are methods for making trees and shrubs, weathering rolling stock, and so on. These resources are in a state of flux as I am constantly building them.

Beverly great thanks did not know u had s site too. David yes indeed i have been all over your sites and links, it's gonna take me days to go through it all. Fortunately I am off in the winter so i have the time to do this, in another month or so it will change.

Tony

Ahh I think I have to go with N ! Love the Z's though. I jus think for a rank mewbie to model RR after a more than 35 year break that Z would overwhelm me I'll be here lurking though. You guys are so helpful and I know alot of you are also N scalers also.

Tony

Tony,

Have you give any thought to Nn3 or Nm gauges? These are N scale trains operating on Z scale track. Then in the future, if you want to change to Z scale completely, you just need to purchase the trains. MTL offers Nn3 rolling stock and Aspen Models offers the engines. If you are into Swiss, then check out this site. www.nm-bahnan.ch it is in German but the pictures are nice. They sent me a catalogue several months ago but I have not ordered anything from them.

Robert

loadmaster wrote:

Have you give any thought to Nn3 or Nm gauges? These are N scale trains operating on Z scale track. Then in the future, if you want to change to Z scale completely, you just need to purchase the trains. MTL offers Nn3 rolling stock and Aspen Models offers the engines. If you are into Swiss, then check out this site. www.nm-bahnan.ch it is in German but the pictures are nice. They sent me a catalogue several months ago but I have not ordered anything from them.

This is a nice idea, but there are a couple of problems. First, there's even less rolling stock available in Nn3 than in Z, and the locomotives are seriously costly and hard to come by. The other problem is that you can't switch to Z by just changing the trains; all of your structures and accessories would all still be N scale.

I love the whole idea of Z and the size is ideal, but the thing I dont like is the limited rolling stock and Loco's avail. I want to concentrate on scenery, buildings, I really dont want to get into scratching Locos and cars, or doing so much bench top tech work. In N there is such a huge selection of hardware. I want to buy my trains off the shelf do some detailing and weathering but thats it. In the future Ill look into Z. Have to get this off the ground first.

Thanks Tony

tonphil1960 wrote:

I love the whole idea of Z and the size is ideal, but the thing I dont like is the limited rolling stock and Loco's avail. I want to concentrate on scenery, buildings, I really dont want to get into scratching Locos and cars, or doing so much bench top tech work. In N there is such a huge selection of hardware. I want to buy my trains off the shelf do some detailing and weathering but thats it. In the future Ill look into Z. Have to get this off the ground first.

It's good that you were able to determine where it was best to start. It may be a little after the fact (or you may have already read it), but I took a look at this very point in my blog:

1-220.blogspot.com/2009/07/not-recommended-for-beginners.html